Speaker: 00:00
We've been so conditioned to endure. And even the phrase like marriages work, it is often manipulated in a way of like that it takes a lot to tolerate a marriage or whatever, to reframe that that marriage or relationships take energy, effort, time, and care, which ideally would also be reciprocated. I think the conversation is with yourself. Are you giving care to a point where you feel depleted?
Speaker 1: 00:37
Hello, hello, hello. Welcome back to YNA Mental Health. My name is Tina Baluch. I am the host of YNA Mental Health. In today's episode, we have Lauren Danger. She is an author, a speaker, and a domestic equity expert. She does amazing work with helping people understand emotional labor, the mental load, and how to build a healthier relationship. Welcome to the podcast, Laura.
Speaker: 01:00
Thanks so much for having me.
Speaker 1: 01:02
Yeah, of course.
Speaker: 01:03
I'm very excited to get into this. I could talk for hours. Hours?
Speaker 1: 01:08
Well, we've got a perfect couple hours to do this. So it's crazy because when I was reading your book, No More Mediocre, you had mentioned that you had quit your job as a teacher. And because of that, you dived into something so new that you were so passionate about. How did you find the courage to do that? Because it's so difficult these days to like just be like, I want to follow my passions and jump into it.
Speaker: 01:31
Yes. Um, well, I will say I started my content life and my platform on TikTok in 2020, which was, I was like the first person of my group of people of my life who was on there. And so I felt like it was kind of anonymous. Like no one knew me there. I was in a kid at a new school, basically. Um, and I could say things there that I wasn't comfortable saying in my personal life. And the stakes felt really low.
Speaker 2: 02:04
Yeah.
Speaker: 02:05
And so I could like air my grievances, I could yell into the ether. I could talk about things that things that I knew for sure would hurt someone's feelings if they heard it or would feel like I was being judgmental. And uh yeah, so I I sort of gained my footing and gained my courage and uh this voice by responding to the things that I was seeing in my personal life and online and on Instagram.
Speaker 1: 02:34
Yeah.
Speaker: 02:34
And I could just like talk freely and I could yell and I could just like emote a lot. And people responded. People were happy to see it. That's how I started doing that.
Speaker 1: 02:46
Why do you believe your message resonated with people so deeply on TikTok?
Speaker: 02:50
Well, so like I said, it was like 2020. And at the time I had a three-year-old and like a nine-month old. Wow. And I was teaching full time. And it's like teaching from home, trying to just keep my head together. Um, and I again, like on Instagram, I'm seeing my friends like crying into their phones. I feel like stories were new on Instagram. And so they're like, I don't know what's gonna happen. I gotta, I gotta leave my job. Like, I I just don't know how to keep it together. I haven't left the house in God knows how long. Like people are falling apart in their personal lives. And um it was, I I just think it was refreshing to see me being mad openly. And um, part of what really like ignited me was I was seeing jokes about it. I was seeing this comedy of like, oh, uh, mom has COVID, but she's still cooking everyone dinner and has a baby on her hip, and dad is like coughing and resting in bed, or dad gets to close the door and continue his job while mom has the job and is managing school for the kids. So there's this like total stress happening and and this lightness that it is being treated with. And so, yeah, I think it was really uh comforting and refreshing. And there was this camaraderie to be like, no, screw this. We should we should be very mad. This is not funny.
Speaker 1: 04:26
Yeah. And how you mentioned like being able to be a creator and like starting a new profile without anybody judging you and just looking at your stuff and being able to just be yourself is so freeing. It doesn't feel like a lot of people have that these days and they're so scared to post things, and you didn't care. And I think that's why your message resonated so deeply is because we need people to act natural and not care. But we know how crazy 2020 was, right? We saw how COVID impacted our entire world. How did COVID change your life, your relationship, and how you understand domestic labor?
Speaker: 05:01
I mean big time. Um, you know, like I said, I had we had small kids. Uh, I've been with my husband forever. Um we've been together since I was 20. Um, and you know, now we have like a almost fifth grader, almost second grader. And so we've been through a lot of life stages together. And um, you know, I I talk about this in the book, like in the intro, where I sort of had like a come to Jesus moment in 2019 where like I was laid off from my job, I'm starting a new job, I've got these kids, I'm just like so stressed out. And I read um Eve Rodsky's fair play. Yes, like right when it came out. So that covers domestic, uh, domestic equity. And I like I just had like a meltdown where I was like, I this is unsustainable.
Speaker 2: 05:55
Yeah.
Speaker: 05:56
And um, but things didn't really drastically change. Um, but then in 2020, when we were just stuck in the house together, my husband, who was traveling like every other weekend basically. Wow. And I was managing every uh almost everything. Um, he was home.
Speaker 1: 06:16
Yeah.
Speaker: 06:17
And we were managing care together in a way that hadn't happened before. Um, and so it shifted our dynamic at home and it pushed me to a breaking point mental health-wise.
Speaker 1: 06:29
Right.
Speaker: 06:29
And just like my brain matter. Like I I just had no capacity to function and my ability to ask nicely totally gone. Um, I couldn't, I couldn't even treat myself with any kind of kindness. So I just had no energy to do that outwardly. And so that's what took me to a breaking point was my personal life. But beyond that, there's the layer of work.
Speaker 3: 06:58
Right.
Speaker: 06:59
And uh being a teacher in a care profession, and um I was getting all this messaging from my boss, like, you know, you really need to smile more. You really need to like keep it together because these kids rely on you. Um, and I just felt like I was like floating through life. And when we were doing online teaching, I was in the living room with these families. Like I'm in their kitchen talking to their kid, and I see the rest of the family behind them. And I'm hearing about uh, I mean, situations of like domestic violence in their household and losing jobs, having to move, um, becoming multi-generational very suddenly in the home, or having um, you know, uh elderly parents who were really uh they couldn't be exposed to COVID. So I'm seeing all of this and I'm seeing how hard it is for them, seeing how hard it is for me. And I'm, you know, we've got all sorts of um protests happening, and we're talking about police brutality. The world, all of it lacks care. And that was like the thread I just kept seeing. And I like I said, like I was just in flames because I was asked to totally sacrifice myself here and there, and being blamed and being guilted and shell of myself, and I'm seeing it all fall apart and onto families and caregivers, just sacrifice after sacrifice. So I just couldn't do it anymore. I saw no way out except to burn it completely down. So pretty, pretty life-changing, I would say.
Speaker 1: 08:47
You know, when they say like when you have those breaking points and you hit rock bottom, it feels like the mental load and the frustration of everything around you just keeps adding all of this pressure. And it doesn't feel like in a world, especially during 2020, it feels as if we were just in such a chaotic place. And you're right, it felt like nobody cared because everybody was caring about themselves during a pandemic that was so difficult. And it's so powerful to see that you because a lot of people don't burn it down, they just keep going until something just causes them distress. So claps to you for being able to burn it down and rebuilding because a lot, what a lot of people don't understand that rebuilding is so important, like restarting can help so much. And when we're going into something like restarting, I want to jump into what you were talking about and invisible labor and just kind of give people an understanding of what invisible labor is. So, in your definition and from the book, what is invisible labor?
Speaker: 09:46
So, invisible labor is the umbrella term for the work that is rendered invisible, but the most essential labor that keeps our lives and society running. Um, it's the tasks that get done that you don't notice until they are not done. Um, it's the emotional labor that you do, which uh Rose Hackman defines it as the self-editing work that you do, regardless of how you're feeling to tend to the emotional environment or the emotional needs of others. And of course, that's not bad. That's actually good and essential labor when it is reciprocated.
Speaker 1: 10:27
When it's equal.
Speaker: 10:28
Yes, and when it's considerate of our needs. Um, but it's also the domestic labor of list making, anticipating, paying attention to, modern monitoring, researching. Um and yeah, so it's it's all of this care work and the stuff that again like fuels our society that we don't notice.
Speaker 1: 10:50
Yeah, exactly. And I think that when it comes to invisible labor, a lot of people, it's really funny because I didn't even understand what invisible the word even meant until I watched uh the movie Fairplay.
Speaker: 11:00
Yeah.
Speaker 1: 11:01
And it all felt like it hit me like a bunch of rocks because it was like, this all makes sense now, you know, and I can see why relationships become so affected by it, you know, and why couples feel as if they're not in an equal place. And I think that's what causes a lot of relationship issues. But what do you think causes invisible labor?
Speaker: 11:21
Yeah, well, it's um, you know, it was that zoom out compounding stress, I think, of the pandemic that really clicked everything into place for me. Um, and if you look globally, like there's uh billions of dollars worth of domestic labor that happens all around the world, primarily by women, primarily by women of color, right, especially in the United States. And on a grand scale, that is exploited labor. That just again makes the entire economy and society run and it's extracted and exploited. Um, and then in our personal lives, it's brushed off as a choice.
Speaker 1: 12:05
Yes.
Speaker: 12:06
Or love or nature. And I think that this narrative that it is um not a big deal or essential and it's love or whatever it is, allows it to be exploited.
Speaker 2: 12:21
Right.
Speaker: 12:22
So it's this narrative that like really we have to believe in in order for things to continue to function the way they are functioning, the status quo.
Speaker 1: 12:31
Right. And you talk a lot about society and how it affects us. And so, what do you believe is affecting us in society? And how can we understand like what is normal in our relationships? Like what can be normal for us?
Speaker: 12:45
Yeah. Um, you know, this is this is what like wraps me up.
Speaker 1: 12:50
Uh tell me about it.
Speaker: 12:51
Did you uh did you ever watch like TGIF or like sitcoms or anything growing up? A little bit, sure. Okay. Um, and it were you a movie kid?
Speaker 1: 13:02
Huge movie kid. Love movies.
Speaker: 13:03
Okay. Mrs. Doubtfire.
Speaker 1: 13:06
I'm gonna write that one down to go watch it. Okay, okay. It's a classic.
Speaker: 13:09
Okay, it's a classic. Um so you know, we have this like bumbling dad. Uh dad doesn't know how to do anything, or he's like conscious of being a bumbling dad, or he's just a man. And so, like, of course, he doesn't see the mess. There's this archetype of him, and then there's the archetype of the nagging, shrill mom.
Speaker 1: 13:31
Right.
Speaker: 13:32
You know, she's she's type A, she's constantly on everyone's case. Dad gets home, wants to kick his feet up, and just oh my God, she gets her joy and her life energy from sucking it out of everyone else.
Speaker 2: 13:45
Yeah.
Speaker: 13:46
So this is this uh, it's this running gag. And um, what that does is it tells us that this is normal and it's not a big deal.
Speaker 2: 13:57
Right.
Speaker: 13:57
So, you know, the the nagging wife that continues to be on your case is actually just exaggerating, like she's exaggerating like every other woman.
Speaker 2: 14:07
Exactly.
Speaker: 14:08
Constantly, just that's how women are so emotional. Yeah. And so we are this picture of relationships is painted for us. And it is super normalized. So that when you have a relationship where you only argue a little bit, yeah, or you're like stressed a little bit, and one partner is like, I'll help. You know, just tell me what to do, I'll help. Yeah, it is so much better than, and there's this mindset of like, at least we don't yell at each other.
Speaker 2: 14:39
Right.
Speaker: 14:40
At least he's not name calling. You know, I'm not that bad. And it really creates this down, like this cultural downplaying and the normalizing of like hating your spouse or the idea that you should just tolerate or you know, endure rather than have a quality relationship regardless of what it looks like that makes you feel good, that supports you, that where you thrive. Um, yeah. So that's like just this terrible normalizing that we do that we constantly uh can compare ourselves to, you know, how it's you know, it's not that bad. It could be worse. It'd be worse rather than like, wow, how could how good could it be?
Speaker 1: 15:27
Yeah. And it's so funny that you say that because like as a kid, we read these fairy stories about how love is being saved by the prince in the shining armor, and then you will ride into the sunset with such a beautiful uh montage of everything happening, and it's it's crazy to see as we grow up that that story is not what it is, and then we see the normalization of what it is. So let's go to that dad in that movie, and and he says, just tell me what to do. What would you say to him?
Speaker: 15:57
So, yeah, that's what I call the nag paradox.
Speaker 1: 16:00
Okay.
Speaker: 16:00
Um, and it it's this whole idea of uh that it's okay or equal for one party to be the domestic engineer who is managing everything, delegating, again, monitoring um and soliciting help. And then the other party is the helper who doesn't make decisions, doesn't take initiative. Um, and so it's it's the, you know, just just tell me what to do.
Speaker 1: 16:28
Yeah, basically just the word itself. Just tell me what to do.
Speaker: 16:31
Tell me what to do, which then quickly turns into the criticism of you're always telling me what to do.
Speaker 1: 16:37
Yeah.
Speaker: 16:37
Um, and so yeah, it's a really great setup for for resentment, right? For like a sense of rejection and attacking. And it can very easily totally erode your relationship.
Speaker 1: 16:52
No, seriously. And and how you mentioned the NAG paradox and how important it is, it seems as if that's a lot of what couples don't understand. So when it comes to communication, how do we not create resentment towards our partner in those kind of situations? You know, it kind of, and I I will jump into this a little bit later with the hand towel story that I'm excited to hear all about and how communication plays such an important role. How what do you think couples need to do in these in these periods of times?
Speaker: 17:18
Uh, I mean, it sounds really simple when I say it. It's not uh like uh good faith effort. Okay. It really comes down to um, like I, you know, I I share this very openly, but I struggle with my mental health, uh, depression and um ADHD. Yeah. And so I have dealt with I lose my stuff constantly. I mean, I like spill things, break things, forget things. I totally, I mean, I've figured out how to be in a constant stace state of anxiety just so I don't forget things.
Speaker 2: 17:53
Yeah.
Speaker: 17:54
Um but the reality is I I have trouble with the daily tasks.
Speaker 2: 18:01
Yeah.
Speaker: 18:01
And it impacts people in my life. Um and you know, this is the common recurring conflict that happens in relationships. Right. Oftentimes the joke of the bumbling dad, like I'm the bumbling dad. Um, and so what it really comes down to is if my behavior is impacting the other party, I need to make sure that my emotional reaction is not also punishing or deterring my partner from bringing that to me.
Speaker 2: 18:29
Right.
Speaker: 18:29
Which is again easier said than done, especially when you deal with shame. Like I sometimes will feel ashamed or embarrassed that I forgot something again, especially if it has to do with my kids. I feel really bad. Um, but it is my responsibility to be realistic if there's a task I'm not good at, ask for help, go online and look for solutions, think about how I've been good at something in another area of my life and try to apply it to home. Um, trade tasks with my partner. It really just comes down to um being flexible, being realistic, uh, attempting to meet the needs, reframing that uh, you know, I don't have to be perfect about this. My house doesn't have to look like everyone else's house, but it has to be hygienic, sanitary. Um, you know, my kids have to have things to eat. Like we just have to necessities. Exactly. We can make it work for us, but we gotta try.
Speaker 1: 19:35
Yeah, exactly. And what you're saying just reminds me of what you said in the book about the remote and how you would always lose the remote. Yeah. And then your your husband would be like, Where is the remote? And you fumble just looking for it for so long. And I bet in those moments you get so angry, and it's not even angry at him, it's just anger at yourself that it just keeps happening. And I mean, that's just a part of a mental disorder, which makes everything even more frustrating. Um, so I have to ask, you know, how can people, especially women, understand their anger and not suppress it and instead use it as a useful, instead of using it, instead use it as something useful.
Speaker: 20:18
Yeah, it's uh tough. I feel like a lot of times, um, you know, the pattern that I was in for a long time in my relationship was like this cycle of suppressing and then boiling over. Um, and we'd have recurring conflicts. Um, so one way of looking at it is like anger is information.
Speaker 2: 20:36
Yeah.
Speaker: 20:37
Um, neutralizing it, like moral, it's morally neutral to be angry. Um, what matters more is what you do with that. Um, obviously you don't want to use like name calling or attacking or punishing things like that. Um, but it isn't it isn't wrong to be upset.
Speaker 1: 20:59
No, it's not.
Speaker: 21:00
And um, yeah, I think that, you know, conflict can be a way to come together and it can be a way to change. So um, you know, the boiling over in the pattern, it was a recognition of a pattern.
Speaker 2: 21:17
Right.
Speaker: 21:18
And things weren't gonna change unless we disrupted it. And a lot of it, uh, the pattern came from continuing to suppress and deny it or talk myself out. At least I'm not the sitcom mom. At least he's not doing whatever. Yeah. Um it is energy that is uh, you know, this is from Audrey Lorde. Okay. Um, it it's energy that is wasted unless we use it to change and not just the immediate circumstances, but broadly patterns in our lives, patterns in our society. Um, it can be really powerful, especially when you can look around and say, actually this is bigger than just me.
Speaker 2: 22:03
Yeah.
Speaker: 22:04
This isn't actually a conflict between my partner and I. We have been sort of led to these roles. And if we are, if we direct that anger at that, and we focus our energy on how can we change this, um, it becomes of again like a very powerful tool and a way to unpack what is going on in ourselves that is keeping us stuck. So yeah, I just like to think of it as energy.
Speaker 1: 22:34
That's a good way of putting putting it because I think energy is what's like so important in us to like use it in the right way, like you said. It's all about how we use it. And what you had also said about reaction is important. Like a lot of what someone says to you, it's all about how you react to it. And if you react, but like we all have those moments, right? Where we're at the where um bedtime is not going the way that you want and then you get frustrated and then you put it on your partner and your partner and you get into some kind of conflict. But a lot of couples fear conflict. And so my question is how can we how can couples view conflict as something that brings them closer together?
Speaker: 23:14
Yeah. And I I really think um one key would be the repair.
Speaker 2: 23:21
Okay.
Speaker: 23:22
Um and this is like so research backed that um you know you can say all sorts of things. I mean I was just getting into my husband and I were just bickering about something uh the other day. I can't even think of what it was.
Speaker 2: 23:35
Yeah.
Speaker: 23:36
Didn't even matter. Um and we each said something that was like a dig at the other. Um and I would say us a couple of years ago might have let that turn into resentment and anger and it would have boiled over into the next argument or conflict. But what we have learned is that an apology about our part, regardless of and in no expectation of the other one to do their part, um, can really turn that conflict, take the information from it, reflect on our own part, where was I actually coming from? What was that touching on for me? And then bringing that into the next one, it just keeps you on this path of repair and growth and trust that in the moment even if and I feel like this comes from a lot of our paths our pasts and younger us, even if you do something wrong or hurt somebody else, you're still okay. That's like a really really important piece of the puzzle of um not turning those conflicts into shame.
Speaker 1: 24:47
Yes.
Speaker: 24:48
Like we are people who can adapt and shift again very research backed that that's a a bonding and trust building thing.
Speaker 1: 24:57
Yeah and it's a real big opportunity for connection like you had said that like you can connect with your partner in these moments. You know I even have difficulties with when it comes to conflict and I'm the type of person that doesn't jump in and recognize it within myself. I'm just in attack mode and that is my issue that I can recognize and how I'm causing issues and my own problems. And of course like we don't want to attack the partner and you're trying to connect with them you're trying to figure out ways to come together and be able to repair like you said repair is so important when it comes to relationships and when it comes to conflict um so kind of going into that now with the communication aspect let's go into the hand towel story. Tell me all about it.
Speaker: 25:39
I want to hear it yeah so um again like we had in my relationship a lot of this this pattern of resentment and again this is such a common dynamic and we can talk about like um condition social conditioning and everything. But a lot of times you know we fell into the gendered thing where I was the pursuer and he was the avoider. Yeah and um understandably because of the way our conflicts were structured um I so my husband did a lot of laundry and what he would do and what I noticed he was doing was like fold everything, get it ready to to be put away but leave these hand towels like folded in a huge pile in the living room in my way in everyone's way ugly. It felt like an unfinished task staring me in the face every day and it felt like he put it there expecting that I would take care of it which was really annoying and you don't like that. And so for a while I continued to see this thing and sometimes I would put them away and then be annoyed sometimes I would leave them there. And as we were breaking our patterns uh basically one day I was like okay what's going on what is going I've noticed they're there.
Speaker 1: 27:07
Finally let me stop you and ask you.
Speaker: 27:10
And I knew again like this is this is tough. He had to trust that I was coming to him in good faith and um like read through whatever tone he was projecting into me and be like okay she's really asking me what's going on. And I had to actually be like there's some reason there's some reason he's doing this. And he was able to be honest with me. He was like I don't know where to put them like these are all weird uh colors textures some are waffles some are really soft I don't understand what the method is here I put them away sometimes and then I see you moved them. And he was avoiding talking to me about it because he was worried I would blow up because I had I had definitely blown up and obviously I was irritated like you can see my face now I'm like I it's coming back to you. Yeah I'm expressive you know um and so I had to be like okay yeah I can see why you would do that. It was important that I also verbalized that yes I can see why you were doing that. Not that I would do it that way. Not that I think that that was the right thing to do but I can understand I can put myself in your shoes. And that was disarming.
Speaker 2: 28:28
Yeah.
Speaker: 28:29
And so then uh he could hear my perspective which was it felt like you were putting this on me touches on that whole thing where I feel overwhelmed or um invisible or whatever big things where I'm saying I perceive it this way. I wasn't even saying this is what you were doing. I'm saying this is a story I was telling myself this is what that represents to me. And so from there like a little bit of let's talk about our feelings but also logistically these are annoying he was like okay and when somebody spills have you noticed that these are in the living room and we just get to grab it I was like fair actually um and I also was like it's fair that yes they're they're weird like a lot of mixed patterns so problem to be solved what we did was we decided that we were gonna buy like warm tones for for one thing cool tones for cool tones for something else um and we were gonna get baskets so that they could live in these baskets and tuck under the coffee table so they could be utilized in the way that the there was a benefit. He identified the benefit and I didn't have to see these in my face like we retired a bunch of the old ones they were dirty or stained not dirty stained or like falling apart. Yeah so we'd like tackled the problem in a way that solved it for everyone and in fact improved the situation for everyone and it was like a just a really good trust building thing for us to come together in that way.
Speaker 1: 30:13
Yeah and that's so powerful in itself I mean it all starts with I always hate to say it all starts with communication you know it does. And it's and it's so frustrating because a lot of us we want to communicate we want to be able to communicate but sometimes we just don't know how to say the right thing or how to say it to our partner without their reaction or worrying about what they're gonna say. And it seems awesome to see how your irritation from one side of continuously seeing it evolved into something that you were able to fix together and bring together.
Speaker: 30:44
Yeah.
Speaker 1: 30:45
You know, and this kind of goes into the gender roles when it comes to labor.
Speaker: 30:49
How do parents untangle caregiving gender roles I you know I I think about this a lot with our kids. I find it very cool that you know my kids constantly see my husband as equal to me as a caregiver. They know that they can go to him to answer questions. If they need anything they can go to him or I we have enough base level understanding that uh we've talked through enough that we're gonna make similar decisions or at least decisions that align with our family values. It's not always going to be the same. We're gonna do things differently that's okay. But they see that all the time they don't know different when they see things on TV and in media we can't control for that however um again research says that seeing that sort of modeling in the household significantly increases a child's um beliefs in equality and egalitarian care in their homes um equal decision making things like that um and I guess like side note it doesn't have to be equal I you know in in our relationship right now instead of being two full-time uh employed people because our gosh it's so hard in the United States to deal with childcare and costs and camps and we've decided I'll be the more flexible parent. So in a lot of ways we are playing house or aligned with the like mom as primary contact dad as leaving the house and going to work um but we make equal decisions we share the care when we're both home again we we are very intentional with that part so um and we feel satisfied in agreement we consented to it we're open and flexible there is no belief that I am supposed to be doing this in uh sacrifice of self to care for others um so it it really does come down to modeling and again when the media happens we name it like age in an age appropriate way but we do bring like oh wow they're really making her look weird you know why is she doing that she actually should be mad about that or like why did they skip over dad for that so it it takes open conversations and modeling.
Speaker 1: 33:39
And modeling seems to be the way that children can really understand and see when they see it in their own homes and are able to visualize it and see that oh this is what they're doing together it just plays such an important part in their development and how they can grow up too because like I think about it back into my childhood like my mom you you had talked about the shampoo fairy and I connected with it so deeply because the toilet paper was always changed. The towels were always fresh everything seemed as if there was a fairy running around cleaning everything and my mom was the one who basically instilled into me like the importance of being clean. And so she would always clean on Sundays and now that's like ingrained into my brain that like I need to clean on Sundays to be prepared for it. And that's and and and it kind of brings me back to also the things that you can't control right you had you had said in the book that the school called you had told the school that they should call dad first and you had they had written it down and everything but they had always still called you first. Has that changed over time now and has the gender roles in your own home have do you still see it or do you think it's finally been able to be reduced into something that's more equal in partnership?
Speaker: 34:58
This is a really really good example of the ways that you can be so on board for equality and be set up to fail. I am telling you like right right now this morning I was dealing with this exact issue my kids are in camp and there's one login and it doesn't matter I when we signed up for camp we put both of our names both of our emails both of our phone numbers it says like it doesn't even say primary or secondary contact it just says like parent guardian parent guardian and all of our info is in there a couple days ago I notice a kid gets hurt at camp and I get a text I text my husband hey did you get that he goes get what I was like wait are you serious? And I uh I I was like can you check your email have you been getting the emails he's like no I haven't seen an email I see you forwarding them and we discovered that whatever back end software it is only allows for one parent or one partner or guardian to have any access. Wow so I like if he picks the kids up and I drop them off I need to text and forward him something so he can check them out. It's oh wow taking away from our ability to function and really really setting us up to fail. And we're married I know friends who are co-parenting or uh parent, you know, parenting with a grandparent or another family or friend who are dealing with this sort of software and the software people are saying it works fine. Oh no but it doesn't work fine because the primary contact is making sure the entire thing functions. And so yeah I've got beef with that but no it hasn't changed. Yeah and um I I just that's one of those things where I think we should just continue to be mad and be like dude it's not working. Yeah it's I I'm actually totally fine being the Karen being the annoying mom and being like yeah sorry this doesn't work for me. Because I'm not the only one and I have the privilege of being taken seriously and having the time to make calls. So I'm gonna do it.
Speaker 1: 37:25
Yeah. And it's funny that a system like that could be changed so easily. And it's a pretty it's a pretty couple codes that they could and I I'm confused like why don't they just don't send the mass text message to both contacts. It doesn't make it doesn't make any sense.
Speaker: 37:39
Makes no sense.
Speaker 1: 37:40
No sense at all my gosh. And and what happens if you're in emergency like how can if I can't get to you like do you just wait? I guess so like oh my God I can see why yeah that would be I would be fighting the system as well.
Speaker: 37:54
Really annoying.
Speaker 1: 37:55
Yeah really annoying I totally get not inconsequential. Yeah literally so moving this train along can you tell me how do you define weaponized incompetence and what is the difference between someone who says I just don't know how to do this versus avoiding accountability.
Speaker: 38:14
Well let's go back to the software engineering please do. Seriously it's like well that would be too hard that would be too hard. So you just manage without us fixing this that's like a grand scale that's the system problem but weaponized incompetence is basically feigning ignorance feigning incompetence uh doing an exaggeratingly bad job in order to offload responsibility and on a uh on some end on a very bad end of it would be to punish um isolate or control someone through doing a bad job or sabotaging. So it can go from um just something that is conditioned or a learned behavior where you're thinking, you know, if I act like I don't see that it will get done and then downplaying it when the issue comes up. And that can be that can seem like it's not that big of a deal. And again that's the sort of thing that we are conditioned to accept through uh media and culture. Um and then on the other end of it really is this like blatant neglect. And you see a lot of this with like young parents or um where the child is not safe with one adult. And so one the other adult stops going to their job or stops seeing their friends, stops going out. And it is a way of controlling and isolating them through unfortunately the child. So that's one of those that you unfortunately do see a lot. And that's a very abusive thing to do.
Speaker 1: 40:01
Yeah. And it's crazy to think that you would want to sabotage your partner. Because you know it's an equal partnership or at least like because a sabotage is just going to make everything so much harder. And it's and it could throw you into conflict that's not going to make your partner feel better. It's just going to make you resent them. And I think that's what makes it so I guess different and just it it makes me ponder like then it just doesn't make sense instead of asking for help and trying to understand on how to do it and becoming better you would rather digress and hurt yourself and hurt your partner and create a manipulative technique technique to to hurt the other person. So I can totally see why that's so frustrating.
Speaker: 40:46
Yeah there's this there's this interesting piece of data that came out recently um from Equimundo they did this like they took all of this research they found a lot of times um traditional gender roles will be used as the excuse for this like I'm not I'm just not good at that or I shouldn't have to do this because it's her job. This is not always this is not necessarily a gendered behavior anyone can do it but that those traditional gender roles what men and women are supposed to be doing is called in or used to rationalize this. And so this data shows that couples who have who subscribe to traditional beliefs about gender and care have higher conflict around care work than those who do not. And men specifically who have traditional ideas about gender and care have like super high likelihood of having conflict in their relationships. So it's not the easy cut and dry thing that they might think it is it's actually really messing with the quality of their relationships.
Speaker 1: 42:01
Yeah and when it comes to ideologies like that it can really affect us.
Speaker: 42:05
How do you support women whose ideologies is to tell them that their exhaustion is just part of being a good wife yeah um you know it's I deal with it myself even as somebody who has spent my whole life being like I'm different yeah I don't believe that women should be a certain thing. Even I deal with it it's this idea that you're you should be endlessly available you should be the primary care for people around you that's actually how you prove that you're deserving of love. So first I want to validate that it is a message that's really put into us incredibly young and it's our true desire to care for other people and connect with them that way that's just being manipulated. One thing that had to click for me was that by not asking for help, I was actually denying the people in my life from connecting with me. It was a protection measure and a way of keeping myself from vulnerability um and one thing that helped me sort of step away from that and I still do it was thinking about the relationships where I feel very seen, very loved very close to someone and it is built through the intimacy of being vulnerable. So um I really had to think and I I hope that other people can think about this like the quality of your your relationships really does come from that risk taking um and it just again like you're worth you're worth it. You're worth it you're worth it. Tell the people you're worth it um and you know like it just is something Something that takes practice, holding small boundaries around your time and energy, taking tiny risks, take the class, pay for the class so that you feel bad not going to the class, like stepping your way into uh giving yourself self space to breathe, have good quality relationships. Um, but I yeah, I just think like step one is validating and knowing that it it isn't a you thing, um, but you've you've been exploited and you deserve space. Yeah.
Speaker 1: 44:34
And I could totally see why that's such an important part of just understanding like not only the exhaustion, but just the ideology itself that causes so much problems. And what I I try to reiterate on this podcast so much is that um for men, uh vulnerability is not a weakness. And being vulnerable helps you uh grow your relationship. And it feels as if it's something that's just so ingrained into us. But that's what we have to break. We have to like introduce to the people that it's okay to be vulnerable in these positions because it grows close, you grow closer to your person. And I think that's that's what it's life is all about. Yeah, you know, is building these connections.
Speaker: 45:14
Definitely.
Speaker 1: 45:15
Um so uh when it comes to service and how women service men in the Middle East, in my culture, women service men, um we look down on that here, but we do it in a subtle way. Um, women women that service men, um it is celebrated and even normalized. How do how does society benefit from uh women's unpaid labor?
Speaker: 45:49
Oh man. Again, like let me bring it back to this thing that's lighting me up right now of the software. Like this system of uh talking to caregivers and parents so that the kids can do their camp stuff only functions because there is a primary contact doing all of this back-end work and energy and texting everybody, making sure everyone has a login, making sure that they got the lunch for the day. Um and the system doesn't work without that labor. The same way that we don't have affordable child care. We don't have uh elder care. We don't have disability support. We don't have um our insurance companies are incredibly hard to manage or navigate. There's all schools only are open for a certain amount of hours. Meanwhile, we are all uh the living wage, uh it's very hard to make a living wage.
Speaker 2: 46:50
Yeah.
Speaker: 46:50
Things are not affordable. Inflation, like all of that relies on primarily women who are figuring out how to make do with less, how to cut coupons, how to either give up their careers so that they can uh cover summer camp because it's too expensive, um, taking jobs that pay less so that they can function within child care hours, taking on the care of their parents because there aren't places for them to go as they need more care. All of our systems run on domestic labor and care work. And because it is expected of or written off as love or a choice of primarily women, it's an interesting thing to sit with, to say we're actually fueling almost everything. And so if you can like wrangle that, sort it out, sit with it, figure out the actual implications of that, I think it is a powerful thought to say, like, what would it change if I kept some of that energy for me or if I used some of that energy as uh sharing it? What would it do for my partner or the other people in my life if they participated in it more? How would our entire society shift if we did a little bit differently in the household? Um so yeah, I think like for me, learning about the ways, not just in the US, but globally, the role that care work plays, the dynamics in different places in the US, we can be very self-centered. And even to think that we are the our gender norms are the only gender norms, or even to think that, oh, women should actually go out and have a career and men should stay home as the answer. Whereas thinking globally, learning from people in different places and seeing the role that care plays there can really, again, just like to sit with that and think about the implications of how our entire world could change if we shifted how we kept care for ourselves and our families.
Speaker 1: 49:23
Bettering our mental health. Yes. Oh, yeah. Yeah. It's it just sounds like the system is broken. Oh, for sure. And as much as we try to fix it, it feels like we just keep falling back into our nor our norms and we keep believing that the system isn't. It's like um where you throw a blanket over something that's broken and you're like, well, I don't see that it's broken. I still think it's okay.
Speaker 2: 49:46
Yeah.
Speaker 1: 49:47
And it feels as if the system isn't um progressing in the way that we had want to. Do you believe we're uh moving in a in the right direction, or do you still believe we're so far behind that we can't even figure it out?
Speaker: 50:00
I I think that that is a complicated, it comes with a complicated answer.
Speaker 2: 50:05
Yeah.
Speaker: 50:06
Unfortunately, we are seeing a backslide with uh younger generation and beliefs about equality, gender equality. There's a huge uptick in sexism. Um, and we're seeing a surge of gender-based violence, things like that. That's alarming. But meanwhile, we have language. Um, we have language of weaponized incompetence, mental load, invisible labor. Um, and we are talking about parental leave and things like that in a new way that those things didn't exist. They weren't something we talked about five or especially 10 years ago. So I think that there have been shifts in that direction. There's a new awareness. And I like to think that that means we are empowered to make policy decisions, uh, decisions about the media that we engage with and the ways that we function in our own homes in a way that, yes, I do think pushes us forward.
Speaker 1: 51:12
And that's like what's so scary because it feels like we are going forward, but just one generation could easily pull us back. Yeah. And that's, or even push us forward. So I think it's just having faith and believing that the system can be fixed is kind of scary, but it's, I think, all we've got at this point, and what you can only do so much as a person, and you're already doing so much. I mean, with your book and talking about everything that you're talking about, it just shows that there are people who want to keep pushing it forward, and that's what's great. Um, you were trained in the fair play system, if I'm correct. So explain to me what is fair play.
Speaker: 51:52
Okay, so fair play is a system developed by Eve Rodsky. Um, and it is a system for communicating about and distributing um domestic labor. And so I think one of the one of the key parts of what she talks about is she defines a task as having multiple parts. She talks about having to conceive of or notice or anticipate a need. She talks about planning and then the actual execution. And so that's uh she and I connected because of talking about things like um weaponized incompetence and the nag paradox, because a lot of times um the dynamic is asking for help, which implies that it was one person's responsibility in the first place or a default party managing. Um, so her she has an entire system of setting a minimum standard of care, of communicating, of having a recurring meetings. And um, yeah, so I was trained in that system. I've coached, I've done workshops and talked with a lot of people. Um, I the the pillars and the principles of it are incredibly good of explicit communication, of uh opting in to something that's like really, really important. It's just informed consent of how your dynamic is. Um, yeah, so that's what that is.
Speaker 1: 53:22
So it sounds like you still recommend it.
Speaker: 53:24
I would say here's what I have to say the basis of it is like a card game system, kind of. Basically, it's just a it's cards with the tasks. She breaks down household into a hundred tasks. It is a tool. It is a great tool. And um, I think that if you take the language of it and you uh take what works, leave the rest. I have seen so many different iterations of using it in your household. Um, and I had the honor of working with them to develop a curriculum for youth.
Speaker 2: 54:00
Wow.
Speaker: 54:01
So I think um I know that it's very valuable language and concepts to just continue to talk about and make sure that this labor is not invisible. And the caveat is that it can put people who are feeling defensive or in a pattern of conflict around it, it can really ruffle up and make that conflict big.
Speaker 2: 54:29
Yeah.
Speaker: 54:30
So um I recommend that if you are going to do something like the fair play system, you come to it recognizing that the logistics of a household are one piece and the emotional uh the emotional responsibility and balance is another really important piece. And I think it is most effective if you are um seeing a therapist or a counselor, or at least both reading the same uh psychoeducation books, listening to incredible podcasts like this, yeah. Um, and doing the work and understanding that there's a context to it.
Speaker 1: 55:12
Yeah. And I see what you mean, but I I also agree with you that both partners need to be in it. Yeah. And I think that's where a lot of disconnection begins, is one party is not willing to. And uh watching the movie Fair Play, and I and I highly recommend it, I think it just opens your eyes to just seeing things that are in front of you that you've just ignored. And I believe what you're saying about the fair play system and the card game itself, I've gotten and it's simple. And I think that's what makes it easier for couples as well, because they don't want to jump into something that's so confusing.
Speaker 2: 55:49
Yes.
Speaker 1: 55:50
Um, so what is one invisible thing that you hope that l listeners see today?
Speaker: 55:58
Um, I I think that recognizing that if you're having a hard time, if you're having a conflict around domestic labor and domestic equity, just like again, the validation is so important that the things that you do at home take up time, energy, brain space, um, and managing a household, much like managing other people or tasks in a job, is energy. Um, and it is important work, sometimes annoying work, sometimes really fulfilling work, but it's work.
Speaker 2: 56:36
Yeah.
Speaker: 56:36
Um, and very essential work. Uh and so I think that a really important shift that we can make is to notice how the dynamic is playing out in your home, uh, reflecting and validating how that makes you feel. Um, and noticing also how impactful this work is in a positive way. I like to periodically think about like, you know, I've got a warm coffee in the morning. I love that. And there is a ton of work that went into that. Somebody knew what brand I like. Somebody cleaned the coffee pot. Somebody bought the filters, somebody cleaned the cup that I drink it out of. And even if that was me, or if that was my partner, or if it was my kid who's learning how to do the dishes on her own, um, it's nice to recognize that there was work that went into something that really does impact, fuel you, um, and create your unique life.
unknown: 57:39
Yeah.
Speaker 1: 57:40
And what I always say is um, when you're seen, it feels when you are seen, it feels to be loved. Yes. And so when you recognize that you're being seen in these moments, you just realize how much love there is for you. And that is so powerful because going back to this whole conversation and learning how love, that there is more to love, and that marriage is work, and it's a lot of time and it's a lot of effort, but it's all worth it in the end. And when you do feel seen by a partner, it's one of the most fulfilling and beautiful things I've probably ever recognized inside of myself as well. So I totally get where you're coming from. So when people finish listening to this episode, what's one conversation you hope they start?
Speaker: 58:27
Um, I think it starts with a conversation with yourself. Um, we've been so conditioned to endure. And even the phrase like marriages work, I it is often manipulated in a way of like marriages work to endure. Marriages work to grit and bear it. Like um, that it takes a lot to tolerate a marriage or whatever. Um, and to reframe that that marriage or relationships with a romantic partner or not take energy, effort, time, and care, um, which ideally would also be reciprocated. So friendship, family, chosen family, uh, with the people in your life to share that care. And so I I think the conversation is with yourself of how are you actually feeling in your relationships? Are you giving care to a point where you feel depleted? Um, in what relationships is that care being returned? How does that make you feel? And um, an honest conversation with yourself might not immediately turn into an honest conversation with the people in your life, but eventually I would hope that you can have a frank and honest conversation about how things could be better because they can. They can be better.
Speaker 1: 59:55
They can always be better. And I think the honest conversation is so important, and I can't emphasize that enough. And it's hard to have the honest conversation with yourself because you have to go and sit with all of it, yeah, and just look at it and try to figure out how to reflect on it, like you said, and that's a powerful thing, and I hope that people understand that an honest conversation is the first step to just figuring it all out. So, to wrap up this whole thing, I have to ask if someone is struggling with their mental health and they're listening to this, what's one advice? What's one tip that you would give them to help them get through it?
Speaker: 01:00:32
Um, you're worth it.
Speaker 1: 01:00:35
I love that.
Speaker: 01:00:36
You're worth it. How about this? You're not alone.
Speaker 1: 01:00:39
Even better.
Speaker: 01:00:41
You are not alone.
Speaker 1: 01:00:43
Yeah. And we want to remind everybody please, please, please remember you are not alone, and we'll catch you on the next episode. Thanks again for coming on, Laura. I really appreciate it.
Speaker: 01:00:52
Thanks for having me.
Speaker 1: 01:00:53
No problem. This wraps up season six of Wine in Mental Health. It's been an absolute pleasure for you to listen to my podcast, watch my videos. I greatly appreciate it. I'm so excited for the next step of our adventure, and I can't wait to continue sharing amazing mental health information, guides, tips, and advice in bringing incredible guests onto the podcast. I want to remind you that you're not alone and that you're going to get through whatever you're struggling with.
